Jobs and Seasonal/Stale Job Boosts

FinalFarce

Active Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#21
let staff decide that, its their job
Yes, but this is in the suggestions part of the forum, the place where users go to suggest things, hence why this whole thread exists. Voicing opinions and arguing your points is a normal and healthy part of community engagement.
 
Jan 15, 2018
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#22
i never said that you couldnt make a suggestion, but that wether a job gets a boost or a nerf is decided by staff, i will not stop you nor tell you to stop arguing your point, or voicing you opinion, the whole sentence you cut was but a fraction of my whole point in that comment, i see why you cut it and said that, but it wasnt needed and is only going to start an argument about something that is far from what the whole post was about
 

FinalFarce

Active Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#23
Not trying to start any argument and honestly, I quoted it and replied to it the way I did because that was my interpretation of the context.
 
Jan 15, 2018
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#24
i have no intentions of making people not post their suggestions, by all means do, the more the better, i am quite fond of reading them and learning what the other players think are good ideas, i know you meant no harm
 

Gaige

Active Member
May 25, 2017
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#25
youre time for enchanter is far from accurate, as the #2 enchanter on the server i can tell you that hoppers dont load that fast, with the speed at which my enchanter grinder spits out exp, which is as fast as possible, you can not get the exp levels to stay above 30, it isnt possible
I want you to understand that these times are calculated using JD's numbers, so what you're saying isn't that my times are inaccurate, but that the tickrates calculated by the content team don't take into account the limitations you just expressed in your post. An average tickrate should take into account such limitations if the one testing were to work until they hit limit, that or JD has a system in place that lets him continue to produce at optimal speeds for the entire time. I gave JD the benefit of the doubt by calculating the times on his numbers even though he didn't prove them himself, and your point only reinforces the idea that more time needs to be put into balancing these jobs. However, once again, balancing jobs is not the point of this thread so I won't delve deeper into this line of thinking.

also with hunter/hellworker, i can hit limit in 25 minutes, it was easier to level than enchanter by far, i mean come on, 2 jobs at once, twice as fast as enchanter, but the pay is not, IS NOT as high as enchanter per tick, its just more constant, would i do cook or farmer ever, probably not, its not my style, im here to grind for a few, hit limit then do other stuff, like building or helping people, the fact that farmer and fisherman dont hit limit is, in my opinion, they are EASY, they dont take much money to get started
First bit: When discussing the time to hit limit, an average tickrate is required, in fact, when talking about any of this, an average tickrate is required. Enchanter has higher potential tickrates, but it cannot maintain them, I believe that is what you mean to say. So if JD's payouts fail to account for that, then the math breaks down and trying to use it to balance makes jobs unbalanced.

Second bit: Farmer does hit limit. It's tied for last place on time to hit limit, even when worked optimally, despite the fact that it takes more time and effort to work. It is a good point that farmer is cheap to start up, but I believe the starting investment into a job isn't the most important factor when determining how quickly it hits limit, so long as it can hit limit I think the more important factor is the effort required to hit limit. With hunter/hellworker that effort is basically 0, it's much higher with farmer. A simple way to think about is this: you can easily afk while watching a show or something while occasionally attacking the mobs in the grinder to hit limit within an hour. Breaking crops and harvesting a farm takes more attention than that, making it a harder job to actually work.

if im going to pay 10 million dollars to make a great grinder, i bet hit limit in that thing in less than 30 minutes, fisherman might cost 40k max, farmer just takes a frickin hoe and a fist, plus seeds, lumberjack has always, ALWAYS, been a hard job to level due to the sheer time it takes to level your treefeller, it was a social status kind of thing when you got it maxed, rancher has always been grueling as well, as it pays really well, my buddy itzvic made like 6miliion in the time i made 3 million, is that job worth it to level, for me, not like that, im using workers, does it pay really well, yes it does, cook + rancher is a really good, really good combo, maybe one of the best, i agree that some jobs might need a boost, or a nerf, but let staff decide that, its their job
Something important to note is that when players spend a large amount of money on a grinder, they're usually not the only ones using it. This is why over 18% of the players in the Hunter job are level 100, and why the job has most level 100 users on the server. There are 77 players at level 100 in Hunter, there are 14 players at level 100 in Farmer. I think that's a pretty clear indicator that one of the jobs is better than the other, and that at this point there is no shortage of good grinders available. The number of good grinders and level 100 hunters will only increase as the job continues to have the highest payouts while being easy to level and work. It simply isn't fair to the players that are willing to put time into grinding farmer that they have to spend longer while actively working to hit limit in optimal conditions.

Lumberjack being hard to level justifies the high tickrate that supposedly comes from it, but as I'm not level 100 in the job and JD hasn't provided sufficient numbers to prove his tickrate, that's all I can say about this job at present.

I'm glad that you agree that some jobs need a boost, or a nerf. It isn't really the point of this thread, once again, but I think so too. Yes, it is the staff's job to decide buffs and nerfs. However I want to be very clear when I say that staff hasn't been receptive in the least to my suggestions on this thread, and I've seen similarly defensive attempts to shut down conversations elsewhere. If they want to say that they have things under control but also fail to adequately explain the numbers that they have provided, then that simply isn't good enough.
 
Last edited:
Jan 29, 2018
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#26
Let's revisit the #5 from above where I calculated the average time to hit limit for farmer with your numbers. Now I'm going to post the average time for each job and a total average:
Hunter/Hellworker (witch + wither skeleton): 23.81 Minutes
Rancher/Cook (pig/cow/horse): 27.78
Hunter/Hellworker/Rancher (Pig/Witch/Wither Skeleton): 20.83
Cook (crafting bread at a "fast" speed): 11.11
Miner: 23.81
Digger: 18.52
Lumberjack: 16.67
Brewer: n/a
Farmer: 27.78
Blacksmith (Iron): 27.78
Blacksmith (Diamond): 20.83
Enchanter: 16.67
Fisherman: n/a

Average time to hit limit across all jobs that can hit limit: 21.42 minutes
You just proved why the jobs dont need seasonal boosts. All of the ones you tested out hit limit in under 30 min. That is perfect, every job is viable and it is mostly about how you choose to play. Again slight changes occur overtime from the jobs team, there is no need to implement something like a seasonal boost if you yourself have shown that all of the above jobs are viable
 

Zevira

Devoted Member
Content Member
Builder
May 18, 2016
1,526
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#27
I def feel like this suvject always cones out : its a precerence on what job you want to do, enjoy cooking so you can do differebt things. Do it^-^, enjoy farming maybe combine it with cooking ect.?

Same for any other jobs. Players will usually go for the job that makes the most the quickest. In my opinion if we stop talking about the money for a tad, farmer and cook go together beautifully. You can make a huge farm lvl your farmer and than go cook.

If it doesnt pay enough (either materials or money) in your eyes, maybe try a different job. Or try toget an efficient way getting materials.

I remember when I used to do farmer and have 100%replant 10/15min spend on a farm woud give me heaps of drops. Lets say, 5+dubs?
If you just do one hour of farmer & the next hour cook. Woudnt it be easely reaching limits for both?

Imean that sounds like a system too wich woud fix the supply demand on your job aswel^-^

Imean, I woudnt be able to get max gishing money. If i dont use fish i bought/ catched before and cook those?


Did I see the point of the post wrong? N but this coud def solve the problem off not enough supply on demand.
 

Seraphom

Known Member
Oct 23, 2016
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Georgia, (United States)
#28
Gotta increase the supply (the wheat (which seems to be the main item talked about in this thread) and hay bales) one way, and i bet that simply increasing all the farmer based drops isn't a good idea, so as far as i know an incentive would be nice (or just hope that the new arrivals decide to be farmers lol)

Though notably, some people dont have the patience/time/know how/resources to hit 1800 herbalism (thus allowing them to reap the full benefits of farming) therefore its kinda less sought after (pretty sure some other jobs get the same treatment) (at least thats what reading the posts/people's opinions/various systems tell me)

Question though, considering the various ways that the thread seem to be blowing to (which is kinda laughably confusing), is this about either Wheat? Job Payouts? Providing an incentive? or some other fourth thing? (or a mix of all these?)

-Seraph
 

FinalFarce

Active Member
Jun 26, 2017
16
8
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#29
The thread was posted as an idea for an incentive/enrichment to jobs variety/diversity. Not specifically "we need more wheat on the server" or "there's not enough [x] job folks" or "[x] job is bad", it's literally just meant to be a fun idea with the added bonus of encouraging folks to try jobs they otherwise might not.
 

Gaige

Active Member
May 25, 2017
14
12
33
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United States
#30
I def feel like this suvject always cones out : its a precerence on what job you want to do, enjoy cooking so you can do differebt things. Do it^-^, enjoy farming maybe combine it with cooking ect.?

Same for any other jobs. Players will usually go for the job that makes the most the quickest. In my opinion if we stop talking about the money for a tad, farmer and cook go together beautifully. You can make a huge farm lvl your farmer and than go cook.

If it doesnt pay enough (either materials or money) in your eyes, maybe try a different job. Or try toget an efficient way getting materials.

I remember when I used to do farmer and have 100%replant 10/15min spend on a farm woud give me heaps of drops. Lets say, 5+dubs?
If you just do one hour of farmer & the next hour cook. Woudnt it be easely reaching limits for both?

Imean that sounds like a system too wich woud fix the supply demand on your job aswel^-^

Imean, I woudnt be able to get max gishing money. If i dont use fish i bought/ catched before and cook those?


Did I see the point of the post wrong? N but this coud def solve the problem off not enough supply on demand.
Hey Zevira, thanks for the reply!

When discussing the economy in this thread, I tried to stay away from personal play-styles in regards to what a job produces, but they are definitely an important factor when you look at how worked a job is. However, looking at the math, it would require 1.92 double chests of hay bales to hit limit for cook in an hour. That would be 17.28 double chests of wheat. So the farmer would need to produce that much wheat in order to hit limit the next hour with cook. It's certainly a tall order. It's something to look into, as I can't personally say how much wheat a farm worked by a level 100 farmer produces. If JD provides the numbers as to the size farm a Farmer needs to hit limit, then I could calculate it, but until then I can't say anything more concrete.

As far as fixing the supply issues, not necessarily. The supply issues stem from a lack of total players producing wheat that they then sell to others. This is why I proposed seasonal jobs. In theory if jobs were perfectly balanced to hit limit at a rate that accounts for all factors that go into working them, then there would be an identical amount of players working each job, but we aren't there. In-season jobs are a feasible way to have players work a job outside of their comfort zone if they choose for additional benefits. It helps to solve the supply issue without the needlessly high bar of perfect job balance, which is all but impossible to achieve.

In regards to the fishing comment, do you mean to say that the only way to hit limit would be to use fish you caught previously? If so, then yes I believe that is the case. But there are two things to consider regarding fisherman: it is seen as a starting job that players move on from when they want to hit limit, and it is easy to level and work. It's a unique job, as no other job is as beginner oriented. As a side note here, I have fish in the exchange, but people don't buy/sell it all too often. This could be because the only people that produce fish are the ones that need to cook it themselves for money. I cannot say for certain though.

You didn't see the point of this post wrong, rest assured. There has been a large, offtopic discussion going on, but the post is very much about the economy and low supply items.

Gotta increase the supply (the wheat (which seems to be the main item talked about in this thread) and hay bales) one way, and i bet that simply increasing all the farmer based drops isn't a good idea, so as far as i know an incentive would be nice (or just hope that the new arrivals decide to be farmers lol)

Though notably, some people dont have the patience/time/know how/resources to hit 1800 herbalism (thus allowing them to reap the full benefits of farming) therefore its kinda less sought after (pretty sure some other jobs get the same treatment) (at least thats what reading the posts/people's opinions/various systems tell me)

Question though, considering the various ways that the thread seem to be blowing to (which is kinda laughably confusing), is this about either Wheat? Job Payouts? Providing an incentive? or some other fourth thing? (or a mix of all these?)

-Seraph
Thank you for the reply Seraph!

Wheat is certainly the main item discussed in this thread at present, because there is a lot of reliable math that can be done around it, and I have personal experience with its supply that lets me talk about it without as much guesswork. Just increasing the drop rate on farmer drops would in theory increase the wheat supply, but it wouldn't make the job more appealing to work. The in-season job incentives would though.

It is true that it takes a lot of patience to get both 1800 herbalism and level 100 Farmer. When there are easier options available there is no real reason to do so unless one really likes farming. At present this issue is represented both in the lack of wheat and the lack of level 100 Farmers when compared to an easier job such as Hunter. Having seasons where the job is boosted would reward players for working it anyway, and if they scaled with job level, it would give players more reason to max out the job. As to whether or not the rewards would scale with job level, this idea just occurred to me, so it'll take more thought.

It's understandable that the goal of this thread is lost in the lengthy conversations you have seen. The central conversation is about rewarding players for working different jobs over time as in-season jobs. I see it as a rotation of jobs that are in-season, so every job could be boosted at some point. The goal is to make it so that less worked jobs have wider appeal, this would create a more diverse and healthier economy.

The conversation is so Farmer-heavy because Farmer is the best example currently. Other jobs directly benefit from the items it produces, wheat is good, and potatoes are useful too. If we look beyond what other jobs benefit from, then having jobs like Digger boosted would increase the clay supply and help players that want to build with terracotta or bricks. Diver would provide prismarine blocks (and coral/kelp too post rework) for players to use. Alchemist would create a surplus of potions players could buy before going on a dungeon run. If you imagine that rancher/hunter/hellworker ever were to become weak and underworked, then them being boosted would supply the server with bones, blaze rods, and other mob drops for brewing and such. Some jobs like blacksmith don't fit well into this example as they don't produce anything, so it's hard to say how they could be boosted or what benefit that would even offer. But I'm sure with enough brainstorming something could be figured out. Not every job has to become an in-season job either, but it makes the most sense to me to give every job some time in the spotlight.

Another aspect of in-season jobs that I haven't mentioned is rewarding specific aspects of jobs during a season. So there could be a wheat season for farmer, and also a potato season. Explaining the previous paragraph made me realize that just boosting a job wouldn't be enough, because players would grind the optimal crop/item from that job. But, dividing seasons down into different parts of jobs is a really complicated idea, so I don't want to get lost in it now.

Anyway, that was a pretty long explanation, but I hope it made sense.
 
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